2024年5月16日，应邀访华的马来西亚总理安瓦尔长女、人民公正党副主席努鲁伊莎·安瓦尔，南非国家行政学院院长布萨尼·恩卡韦尼，与北京对话联合创始人、风险投资家李世默，就中国与东盟协同发展、全球南方国家寻找合作共同基础、跨国企业履行国际和社会责任、全球南方国家携手制定新的全球化愿景等展开对话。
对话实录整理如下：
李世默：欢迎来到北京对话。今天我们请来了一位特殊的嘉宾，我的朋友、来自马来西亚的努鲁依莎和我的老朋友、来自南非的布萨尼。
我们生活在一个动荡的时代，我们经历了30年的全球化，而在过去的几年里，大约5年间，一切都在倒退，无论是经济上、政治上还是军事上：军事冲突、经济战争、供应链问题。在我看来，冷战结束后开始的整个全球化模式正陷入困境，已经停滞。与此同时，我们还看到了另一个趋势，那就是全球南方国家的迅速崛起，它们作为集体已经成为世界舞台上的重要角色。
最近，全球南方国家之间的贸易额首次超过了与全球北方国家的贸易额。我们约占全球GDP增长的60%至65%。我们既包括非洲最贫穷的国家，也有中东最富裕的国家、军事强国，东盟也是全球南方国家中的重要一员。我们的成员也将进一步扩大，包括沙特阿拉伯、伊朗、阿拉伯联合酋长国等等。
您如何看待全球南方国家，尤其是马来西亚发挥的作用？马来西亚是东盟最有影响力的国家之一，是东盟的领导者，与印度尼西亚平分秋色。您如何看待马来西亚的角色和东盟在这一全球转型中的角色？
努鲁依莎：谢谢李世默和布萨尼。很高兴来到这里，不仅因为主办方是北京对话，更重要的是这次的对话主题。我认为我们所有努力都必须对标未来的挑战。当下，三年来的新冠疫情确实打乱了所有人的步伐，马来西亚也不例外。我认为这也是应该的，不然我们不知何时才能认识到系统性的不平等现象，认清全球北方的偏见。
这让我想起了我和李世默第一次见面的情景；很多人可能不知道，我们是在马来西亚主权财富基金“国库控股”的“大趋势论坛”上见面的，李世默应邀做了主旨演讲。他首先提到的就是人民公正党主席、我的父亲安瓦尔·易卜拉欣（Anwar Ibrahim）在27年前写的《亚洲复兴》一书。当年我17岁，现在40多岁，这本书勾画了一种愿景，即亚洲复兴到可以与全球北方国家相媲美的程度。
但现在，通过金砖五国，通过合作，通过南非、巴西、中国等国所做的决定，我们看到愿景的具体落实，这正是我们在做的事情。有愿景和理论基础固然很重要，但马来西亚也愿意做实事并提前规划。当我们考虑金砖国家和增长潜力时候，美西方国家暴露出了明显的虚伪，我认为，如果您说美西方国家已经为下个十年甚至更长时间提前做好了规划的话，我一定会反驳您。我们应该规划好，我们应该如何融入供应链联系，让人们过上更好的生活。
李世默：我认为你谈到了其中的两个重要方面。我是你父亲这本书最早的读者之一。我们当时是大学生或刚从大学毕业。在上世纪90年代，“历史终结论”盛行，我们似乎都将成为路易斯安那人或希望成为路易斯安那人。当时，我们都有点不知所措；然后我的同学说，嘿，有一个马来西亚人写了《亚洲复兴》这本书。从某种程度上来说，这本书其实是超前的，不过我觉得你说的思想基础很有意思，即对于全球南方国家这样多元的国家组合来说，什么才是全球南方国家的思想框架？如何找到能将我们团结起来的共同点？
我们非常多元化。首先，在思想层面上，是否有能够将我们团结起来的思想叙事？其次，在实操层面上，我们全球南方国家之间的贸易额已超过与全球北方国家的贸易往来，但我们仍在使用美元作为货币，而且我们在半导体、技术和金融体系等许多方面仍依赖于全球北方国家。我记得卢拉总统去年在上海的时候，我当时在观众席上，他说的最重要的一句话是：每天晚上他都会问自己，我们为什么要使用美元？
这是令人难以置信的。他当时在新开发银行发言。那么，我们可以做哪些实际的事情来摆脱当前局面，掌握自己的命运呢？
布萨尼：在过去的几周里，我学到了两个新概念。一个是“全天候关系”。我看到习主席上周在欧洲访问时，在他访问的最后一个国家，所缔结的伙伴关系被称为“全天候战略伙伴关系”。我认为，在管理全球南方国家事务的过程中，我们需要这种全天候的关系，因为全天候的关系将使我们首先处理我们之间的矛盾，因为确实存在矛盾，这是可以理解的。
其次，这种关系将使我们能够优先处理对我们全球南方国家来说最重要的问题，全球南方应该关注的问题。这意味着我们可以在诸如巴勒斯坦问题等重要问题上保证团结一致。这意味着我们可以在贸易问题上团结一致，我们可以在如何扭转某些国家企图通过硬实力来破坏世界贸易组织等多边机构的趋势上团结一致。
我最近学到的第二个概念是“全球北方”、“全球南方”和“全球东方”，而中国实际上是所谓的“全球东方”的一部分。作为全球南方国家，若想产生团结，建立全天候的、目标驱动的关系，我们能做的最实际的事情之一，就是应对这些孤立全球南方任何成员或分裂全球南方的企图，这也是“全球东方”概念出现的原因。
最根本的是，南非自1994年建国以来，作为一个民主国家已有30年历史。在南非过去30年所做的一切中，我们从马来西亚吸取了很多经验教训，我们实施了提高社会公平等许多其他措施，我们通过学习中国经验实现了很多目标。我们的一个优势是，我们在1994年获得了自由，当时马来西亚、中国等许多国家已经在改革方面做了不少努力，我们建设“后种族隔离”社会的实践都是基于这些经验。马来西亚、中国和其他全球南方国家面临的最大任务是，切实支持其他全球南方国家建立自己的动态能力，让这些国家有能力处理贸易、经济建设和机构建设等问题，这些问题也是许多南方国家面临的部分挑战。
上世纪为争取南非自由、结束种族隔离制度的抗议示威运动
李世默：加沙局势可能是一个很好的多棱镜，我们可以通过你所说的思想、道德基础来看待之。我们发现，全球南方国家和南非持几乎处于前所未有的统一立场。
努鲁依莎：你们真的是先行者。
李世默：贵国总理也是最敢于直言不讳的人之一。贵国总理在全世界说的事情在20年前是难以想象的。无时无刻，只要有机会，他就会毫不掩饰地站在台前发表道德声明。这让全球南方国家耳目一新。习近平主席常谈建设一个新的、公正的世界。这非常有趣、别开生面。这是否是全球南方国家的崭新面貌呢，未来将如何？
努鲁依莎：尤其是布萨尼在这里，我想说的是，马来西亚一开始就支持曼德拉，到今天，我们可以把以前的创伤、苦难转化为美好的东西，你不应该堕落为你曾对抗的怪物。我们不仅要对抗恶霸，还要敢于说实话。有时我认为，当今霸主将道德准则抛之脑后，这更应坚定我们确立一套明确道德准则的决心。
其中一个道德准则是，对滥用权力的现象发声，特别当种族灭绝袭击发生时。布萨尼提到了多边机构，其中的一票否决权扼杀了我们维护和平的能力，还存在流氓国家可以完全忽略一切反制的情况。规则应该平等适用所有国家，不论这个国家的强弱大小。
在战火废墟中玩耍的巴勒斯坦儿童
李世默：谁才是真正的流氓国家？
努鲁依莎：对啊！这让人非常难过，因为这最终会让世界变得更不安全、更危险，到时候能怪谁呢？所以，回到全球南方如何利用这一时刻，我想说的是，我们发声不仅是因为正义，也是为了维护世界秩序，维护法治、毫不犹豫地站出来。
第二，回到实践问题，因为归根结底，我们也要确保关于贸易链、供应链等中国在建立纵向和横向网络方面的成功经验，发展中国家仍可以学习和借鉴部分经验。
我在这里引用李根和张夏准的观点，因为在经济追赶方面，我们也不能一步步地照搬西方的模式，因为这种模式通常有非常严格的知识产权制度，这会让全球南方苦苦挣扎的国家更加困难了。新冠疫苗问题也是如此，对吧。我不用细细举例，重点是，精神、法治、思想基础和实用性，我们可以更好地包装这些东西，深化和效仿这些东西。
李世默：因此，我们再次追溯我们叙事的两个层面。一是也许我们正在经历一场全球南方的集体道德觉醒。我们能用此实现目标吗？我们都应该思考这个问题。你回到马来西亚，你回到南非，我们需要发展思想，传播思想、组织人民，我们能够共同推进，使之成为即提到的觉醒。然后在实践层面上，就像你说的，对我影响很大的一本书是 15-20 年前剑桥大学的一位经济学家张夏准写的《踢开梯子》。
他们实现发展后想踢开梯子，我们现在也正在试图踢开梯子。因此，中国人非常幸运，通过努力和一点运气，我们紧紧抓住了梯子，从而往上爬。我认为，他们想踢开梯子为时已晚。他们现在在死马当活马医。
努鲁依莎：美国201条款就是例子。
李世默：我们现在闯入堡垒了，但仅此是不够的。我们必须把全球南方的其他国家也带到那里，只有这样，我们才能持续待在堡垒中。我们有不同的理念、不同的道德准则、不同的政治信条。我们经历了几十年的全球化，现在，我们正在经历一个全球北方国家推动的去全球化时代，因为他们想踢开梯子。现在他们觉得全球化有损他们的利益，所以不想继续全球化进程，他们之前已经赚到钱了，但我认为已经有点为时已晚。我们要做的是度过这个去全球化阶段，并尝试重新全球化。重新全球化的世界将是一个不同的全球化世界，它将是一个更具包容性的全球化世界。因此，我们一直在讨论中国如何与全球南方合作，与东盟合作，与金砖国家合作，也许还有“一带一路”沿线的基础设施建设和制造业发展。
因此，中国的技术道路与西方完全不同，西方建立技术然后坐等收租，利用技术剥削世界其他国家。过去十几二十年来，随着中国技术的进步，我们看到了完全不同的情况。当中国人发明技术时，我们互相竞争，把价格压得很低。对于我这样的投资者来说，这有时会让人抓狂，但现状就是如此。中国人的做事方式不一样，每当中国人发明某种东西，世界上其他国家的成本也会被打下来；打个比方，如果换成是美国人，那么电动汽车的售价就会比奔驰贵，他们就是这样做的：他们可以以90%的毛利率销售阿司匹林50年。但如果中国发明一种药物，5年间这种药物就会变得几乎免费。
进军印尼市场的比亚迪汽车
努鲁依莎：你真是说出了很多人内心所想却不会说出口的话。
李世默：因此，我们现在有可能走向不同类型的全球化；如果我们能继续这样走下去，就像我说的那样，我们沿着梯子向上攀登，我们发明出中国技术，然后由世界生产、面向全球市场。我们如何在供应链上共同实现这个愿景？
布萨尼：让我举一个实际的例子：我明天将在观察者网发布一篇文章，我提出了全球南方国家必须就“金伯利进程2.0”达成一致的建议。看过《血钻》这部电影的人一定记得，钻石贸易是如何给许多生产钻石的国家，尤其是非洲国家，带来灾难的。
金伯利进程以南非发现钻石的地方命名。它成为了一个对话过程，最终制定了一套全球通用的规则，每个从事钻石贸易或销售的人都必须遵守这一规则；通过引入金伯利进程，我们看到利比里亚等国的冲突状况得到了化解，因为每一颗在全球销售的钻石都必须有明确的出处。
现在，在非洲许多国家，也可能在亚洲和拉丁美洲，将要发生的大冲突是围绕着关键矿产。这些是绿色革命所需的关键矿产，其中包括电动汽车的生产。我认为我们需要为这些关键矿产制定“金伯利进程2.0”。这样做可以扭转一些潜在冲突，例如欧盟在刚果的所作所为。由于欧美想与中国竞争，他们在非洲许多生产关键矿物的国家的做法，正在酝酿冲突。
其次，这意味着通过你所说的全球价值链，拥有关键矿产的国家可以利用这些矿产实现工业化，这意味着即使梯子被踢开，他们也可以实现一些发展，他们不必等待和经历每一步的追赶。非洲中部等地的国家可以开采这些关键矿产，进行加工，然后再运到中国，在中国生产电动汽车和其他各种产品。中国按照以下方法做的话，就会成为全球南方工业化进程中的最大贡献：设立一种机制，规定我们将购买这些关键矿产，但是你们需要在这些矿产运抵中国之前对其进行选矿，将对这些矿产负责。此类和平开采也会让非洲实现某种形式的工业化，我想这将彻底震撼美国，因为此前从未发生过。
李世默：实际上，我认为我们正处于一个关键时刻。我们拥有巨大的机遇，如果我们能将中国巨大的工业产能与全球南方的资源和市场结合起来，我们就能在我所说的“小院”之外形成一个新的全球化世界，我们是世界，他们是“小院”。法里德·扎卡里亚（Fareed Zakaria）谈到了一边是西方，一边是其他国家，以及后者的崛起，我想掉个头说，应该是一边是世界，一边是西方；我们是世界，他们是西方。因此，有很多事情要做。东盟能否成为更积极的参与者？
努鲁依莎：我们还必须认识到，东盟不同国家之间存在社会发展差异，经济发展水平也不尽相同，但我们可以确保采用的模式是因地制宜的。
我喜欢布萨尼提到的金伯利进程，马来西亚早在1974年就成立了自己的石油和天然气下游产业开发公司，也就是我们自己的国家石油公司。这很重要，因为如果我们没有这样做，局势就会很困难。想象一下现在的稀土、关键矿产，你们如何才能发展这种产能？不仅靠销售原材料，还要确保能够利用下游产业。首先需要人才储备，这需要时间，需要大量的政治决心，需要耐心，还需要一种不只放眼短期利益的心态。我认为我们谈得越多，各方就越能理解，自己应该做的也是弄清楚各自的国家，在未来十年里，将如何提高产业。
马来西亚也引入了其他机制，如强制或自愿许可的发放和使用。疫苗和治疗是非常昂贵的。国际大药厂强加荒谬的价格，政府负担不起治疗的费用，我们眼睁睁看着人们死亡。
因此，马来西亚卫生部与被忽视疾病药物组织（DNDI）合作，成功地应对了这个难题，从而获得了人们能够负担得起的丙型肝炎药物，挽救了数万人的生命。
因此，再次强调，无论是稀有矿产、关键矿产，还是人们急需的药品等简单的东西，都可以做到（争取发展中国家利益），都应该做到，各方都应就此达成共识。因为我们知道西方企业会怎么做，当他们无法向马来西亚市场销售时，他们就会去敲越南的门；我们必须团结起来。我们必须真正说服东盟的每个国家。
李世默：全球南方国家的集体议价。如果我们有政治意愿，我们可以在许多方面做到这一点。布萨尼，南非情况怎么样？你们可是这方面的先行者。
布萨尼：重要的是，在这些对话中，我们认识到矛盾，每个国家都有自己的国家发展矛盾、政权矛盾和全球矛盾。
最近，许多南非人都在说，你们应该解决国内的贫困问题，而不是诉诸国际法庭，担心其他国家发生的事情等等。
但南非政府清楚地认识到，国家发展及其追求决不能抵消其他责任，例如追求和平与正义，我们南非一直在这样做。我们很高兴许多其他国家与南非携手合作。曼德拉所说的非常重要，即我们需要在全球秩序中展现人性的一面，展现新的一面。所以这也是南非的目标。
我们也十分庆幸，对于我们所经历的所有挑战，如过去30年在国家建设中吸取的教训，都可以参考其他国家的经验。例如，我们有一个国家计划委员会。国家计划委员会参考了中国和马来西亚的相应部委。我正在与张夏准合作，他将于7月进入韩国内阁，他将直接参与相关讨论。
我们非常认同，首先必须处理好贫困、不平等和结构改革的国家优先问题。作为全球南方国家集体的一员，我们必须持续履行追求正义和发展的义务。这就是我们与中国、马来西亚和许多其他国家相处的态度。
顺便说一下，许多人会在电视上看到，在美国国会，几乎每隔两周就有人提出南非必须被孤立。这就是我们南非正在经历的事情，因为有游说团体针对南非就中东问题的立场，声称必须孤立我们。但我们的立场很重要，我们是合作伙伴。我认为每一场革命都需要有人来支持。在这种情况下，全球南方的每一场革命都需要思想资本，需要我们互相的支持，需要我们建立持久的制度支持。在国家动态能力方面更领先的亚洲国家，在建立人与人关系时，需要支持其他国家建立动态能力，尤其是小国。
所以，当这些国家来和中国谈判一带一路合约的时候，会受到西方媒体的批评。小国签署合同时需要理解合同的条款，并相信这份合同会在最大程度上符合国家利益。但在某些情况下，西方媒体滥用个别例子，认为一些小国迫切希望签署协议，想要桥梁、轨道和道路等等，认为早期合同在这一层面存在问题。
但如果我们支持全球南方的提高动态能力，我们就能确信，当一带一路朋友圈扩大时，“合同偏袒中国”的指责是可以得到解决的。基础设施建成后，也需要投入使用。当中国大型国企离开后，这笔资产需要相应维护，所以必须考虑到可持续性，因此建立动态国家能力必须成为人文交流的重要组成部分。
努鲁依莎：我想补充一点，这是一个非常重要的因素，因为第一步总是伟大的宣言，就像我之前提到的丙型肝炎药物问题，但第二步该怎么做，如何确保这是可持续的？当你决定这么做的时候，你需要考虑到所有市场。因此，深化投资和后续支持，以确保项目的可持续性，就是我们需要做的事情。这需要我们互相支持，这很有挑战性，但也回到了关联性这个大问题上。马来西亚也不能幸免于遭到各种威胁。
李世默: 问题的关键是，他们开始这样做了之后，我们该如何应对，我们是否在集体应对?
我认为这一点非常重要，中国现在已经成为很多国家的主要经济参与者，这是一个新现象。现在中国对全球南方国家的贷款总额超过了世贸等所有西方机构和西方富国的总和。
这是巨大的一笔钱，许多中国企业在走出去。我认为我们实际上应该为中国和这些国家之间的经济活动制定一套经济行为准则，大家达成共识，我们如何在可持续的基础上相互受益。这是一个新现象，10到15年前，中国公司去缅甸的时候，都存在很多问题，但后来得到解决了，现在状态好多了。所以我们在学习，我认为这是双向的学习，这是我们应该做的另一项任务。我认为中国应该与金砖、东盟等全球南方机构坐下来谈谈，找出能够规范中国企业在这些国家的经济活动的框架。
努鲁依莎：反之亦然。
李世默：没错。
布萨尼：没错。重要的是，我们也要对此持开放态度。从我在非洲多国的观察，看到中国公司在非洲的投资类型的演变。现在我们正在与一流的中国国有企业和一流的私营企业互动。15年前，我们只是与中国的乡镇企业互动。
李世默：有些“卷钱就走”的企业。
布萨尼：现在情况已经改善了，因为我们现在与一流企业互动，他们受到政府的严格监督。因此，15年前的挑战现在已经缓解了，因为我们正在与最大的国有企业、最大的私营企业进行互动，这些企业受到中国政府的严格监管。我认为我们正在为研究国际关系的学者开辟一个新的理念，也许我们应该探索一种我们称之为行为准则的东西，这可能就会瓦解一些西方国际资本的势力。
李世默：这其中也有道德角度。尤其在过去的两三百年间，西方公司在非洲的经济活动几乎都是违法的。我曾去过加纳，我喜欢深入参观当地的学校。加纳有丰富的金矿，但当地人什么也没有得到，全由英国和欧洲公司在捞钱。他们贿赂官员，拿走黄金。加纳人在这片土地上住了上千年，却什么都没拿到。中国不应该也不会重蹈覆辙。所以我们需要制定行为准则。
努鲁依莎：我读的那本书里描述的就像是经济杀手的自传。
李世默：我们有一大堆事要做。
努鲁依莎：确实，但至少我们知道我们需要做什么。这是一个好的开始。
李世默：我们全球南方国家需要团结起来，勾画让世界重新全球化的愿景。我们想要一个什么样的世界？我们谈论世界正义，经济发展，共同发展，为我们的人民带来福祉。那么应该采取什么样的行为准则呢?所有这些问题都有待我们解决。所以我们需要明确一个愿景：我们想要一个什么样的世界?
努鲁依莎：这也很令人兴奋，对吧？尤其是因为，当前这一刻由我们一手来设计和勾画。我认为光是提到行为准则就让人充满希望，它应该给年轻人带来希望，全球南方的参与是更为无私的。
李世默: 完全正确！您的组织（南方中心）应该领导这一进程。
李月芬：是的，我们已经非常积极地在做这些事了。
努鲁依莎：他们会说我早就告诉过你了。
李世默：好的，我们时间到了。让我用30秒总结一下。这是一次很棒的讨论，我将今天讨论的内容总结为四点：第一，思想基础。我们能否为全球南方国家发展提供一个道德叙事，一个我们全球南方想要的共同愿景，一个正义的世界秩序，我们需要思考这个问题。第二，共同的经济发展。我们如何构建新的经济发展架构，囊括所有的变化、去全球化、重启全球化、供应链，以及中国经济的变化和生产转移？这个新的架构将如何帮助我们所有人发展，帮助我们所有人保持沿着梯子向上攀爬？第三，我们应该发展什么样的社会政策，例如关于贫困的社会政策，跨越不同的文化和不同的政治体系。第四，我们自己制定标准，而不是强加给我们标准；我们自己发展机构，像金砖国家这样的机构，还有刚才提出的新机构理念，新的资金池或许不能取代IMF，但至少可以成为IMF的替代品，或诸如此类的机制创新想法。
李世默：我们将来还有很多需要做的事情。我们在各自国家，应该思考并致力于做这些事。希望北京对话能成为一个平台，一个我们可以一次又一次讨论这些问题的平台。当然，在这个过程中，也许我们还会发展出论坛、机构或其他形式的交流。非常感谢大家。
对话英文原文：
Eric: Welcome to the Beijing Club for International Dialogue. So today we have a special guest, my friend Izzah from Malaysia and my old friend Busani from South Africa. We live in a turbulent time. We had 30 years run of globalization, and in the last few years, maybe 5 years, everything is going up in smokes, both economically, politically and militarily: Military conflicts, economic wars, supply chain problems. It seems to me that the whole model of globalization that began at the end of the cold war is in trouble. It has run aground. At the same time we see another trend, which is this rapid rise of the Global South, has become an enormous player on the world stage collectively. I think for the first time, recently, the trade between us, Global South countries, has exceeded the trade volume between us and the Global North. so we're doing more with ourselves, amongst the Global South countries, than we are doing with Global North. And we're about 60%~65% of the global growth, all the Global South countries together. And Global South countries are very diverse. We got the poorest country in Africa. We got wealthiest countries in middle east, powerful military country; ASEAN, of course, is a big player in the Global South. Then we have new institutions being set up and being enlarged like BRICS; and South Africa of course is the founding country of BRICS. It's now just enlarge to include Saudi Arabia and Iran and UAE etc. How do you see the role of the Global South in general and also in particular in Malaysia? Malaysia is one of the most influential countries in ASEAN, a leader in ASEAN, along with Indonesia. How do you see your role, Malaysia role and ASEAN role in this global transition?
Izzah: Thank you, Eric, and Busani. It's a real pleasure to be here, not just being hosted by the Beijing Dialogue, but I think more importantly the topic at hand. I believe in everything that we try to achieve, it must somehow be able to manage future challenges. And we're just here, Malaysia is not excluded from the 3 year pandemic that has really thrown everyone off balance, and rightfully so, because when else would we realize the systemic inequalities, perhaps the rather prejudicial or biases of the Global North to make us wake up.
It reminds me of the first time we met; so many might not don't know this, when we met at the side of the Khazanah Malaysia sovereign wealth fund mega-trends forum, Eric li was invited as a keynote speaker. The first thing he said was of this book called the Asian renaissance written 27 years ago by my party president and father, Anwar Ibrahim, but I think as a person who was just 17, then in my 40s now, that for me is that kind of vision. We talk about a resurgence in Asia that can stand up at par with countries of the Global North.
But now, through BRICS, through collaboration, the founding, the decisions made by South Africa, by Brazil, China, you see the concrete realization, and this is what we need to do. It's great and it's important to have a philosophical underpining, but Malaysia has indicated our readiness as well to engage and plan ahead. You can't plan ahead for the next even 5 year cycle. I would argue when you talk about BRICS and the potential for growth and the clear cut hypocrisy that the US and a lot of western nations have exposed themselves to, is to plan ahead for the next decade and more. How do we include ourselves in the supply chain interlinkages and also able to affect lives for the better.
Eric: I think you touched on two important aspects of this. So I was one of the earliest readers of your dad's book. We were college students, we just had graduated from college. At that time in the 90s end of history, we're all becoming Louisiana or hoping to become. Then we're all kind of at a loss; on one hand, we're trying hard to develop and make money. On the other hand, we're asking, who are we why are we doing this? And then my classmates said, hey, there's a Malaysian guy who wrote this book, Asian renaissance. So it's way ahead of his time actually in a way, but you said something very interesting, philosophical underpinning. What is the philosophical narrative, the philosophical framework that a diverse set of countries like the Global South can think about and have and build something that's in common that can unify us.
So we're very diverse. Is there a philosophical narrative that could unite us one. That’s on the philosophical level. Two, on the practical level, we're trading more amongst us now than with the Global North, but we're still using the US dollars, the currency, and we're still depending on the Global North on so many things like semiconductors, technology and financial system. I remember President Lula, when he was in Shanghai last year, I was in the audience, the biggest statement he made was, every night he goes to sleep, he asked himself, why do we have to use the US dollar?
It was incredible. He was in the New Development Bank. So what are the practical things that we could do to break out of this and control our own destiny?
Busani: So I've learned two new concepts colleagues in the past few weeks whilst I've been here. One of them is a concept called all weather relationships. I saw it when President Xi was in Europe last week, in the last the country he visited, the partnerships that were sealed. They were called all weather strategic partnerships. I think it matters that in managing the affairs of the Global South, we need those type of all weather relationships amongst ourselves as countries of the Global South because the all weather relationship will allow us first to manage contradictions amongst ourselves, because we do have contradictions, that is understandable.
But secondly, they would allow us to prioritize that which matters the most for us, the Global South to focus on. That means that we can have pledged solidarity on matters that matter, such as the palestinian question, we can have solidarity on that. That means there could be solidarity on issues of trade, there could be solidarity on how we reverse the trend of attacking multilateral institutions like the WTO through the use of hard power to undermine these institutions that were established as globalization was being promoted through the institutions like the WTO for example.
The second concept that I have learned recently is this concept of there being Global North, the Global South and the Global East and that China is actually part of what is called the Global East. Part of what we need to do in the most practical way as part of building solidarity, as part of building these all weather, mission driven relationships as the Global South is to deal with these attempts of isolating any member of the Global South or dividing ourselves as the Global South. And that is what we see. Hence this idea of the Global East.
But most fundamentally South Africa is 30 years old now as a democracy since 1994. In everything that South Africa has done over the past three decades, there's a lot of lessons from Malaysia. We implemented equity and many other measures. There's a lot of things we've done by learning from what has happened here in China, because we had some advantage in that we became free in 1994, when the experiment of reforms had already taken place in the people's republic of China, in Malaysia as well as in other countries. So a lot of the things that we have tried to do to build a post apartheid society is based on those. So by that I mean, the biggest task ahead of countries like Malaysia, China and others in the Global South is to practically support other countries in the Global South to build their own dynamic capabilities so that they can be able to manage such issues as it was trade, rebuilding their economies and build institutions, because that's part of the challenge that is facing many countries in the Global South.
Eric: So on the situation in Gaza, that's probably a good prism. We can look through the philosophical, moral underpining you talk about. We find fairly almost unprecedented, unified position among Global South countries, in South Africa.
Izzah: You guys are really the standard bearer.
Eric: And your prime minister has been one of the most vocal. This is unimaginable 20 years ago, your prime minister what he's been saying around the globe. Everywhere everytime he gets a chance, he's right up on front unapologetically, making moral statements. This is kind of new for the Global South, really new. The Chinese General Secretary Xi Jinping talks about building a new just world, it's about justice in the world. So it's very interesting, very refreshing. Are we getting anywhere with this, is this a sign of a new kind of Global South?
Izzah: I wanted to say that even being here with Busani, from the early days of Malaysia supporting the Madiba, to today seeing that we can take previous trauma, suffering and turn it into something good and you shouldn't end up being the monster you fought against. I think when you say and you see South Africa taking up the case at the international court of justice and this list, even Colombia, even Brazil, I think it really showcases the ability. We have to fight bullies for one thing, but we also have to speak the truth. And sometimes I think in the world where the moral compass has somehow been thrown by the powers that be, I think, more the reason why we have to craft this clear cut set of parameters.
So one is to speak truth to abuse, especially when genocidal attacks take place because Busani mentioned about multilateral institutions, not only is the veto power strangling the ability to preserve and work towards peace. But you have this complete ignoring outright, every single kind of action put against a rogue state, because that's how rules should be applied to equally. Regardless of the might and the size of the nation.
Eric: Who is the real rogue state?
Izzah: Exactly! And that's very saddening, because it ends up making the world far less safer, far more dangerous. And who do you blame? So for me going back to how can the Global South harness this moment, I would say is not just necessary to say that because it's right. It's also to make sure we preserve a world order. We preserve a clear cut rule of law and unabashedly standing up.
Number two, going back to the issue of practicality, because at the end of the day, we also want to make sure that trading links, supply chain, the lessons from China's success in establishing a vertical and horizontal supply chain network, parts of it can be learned and acquired from countries which are still developing.
I quote Keun Lee here, along the same grouping as Ha-Joon Chang, because in terms of an economic catch up, we also can't have a step by step approach following the same western model because usually that model will impose a very stringent IPI regime that makes it even more harder for countries like the Global South who are struggling. Even the vaccines, right? So I don't have to go to detail, but the point is, the spiritual, the rule of law, the philosophical underpinnings and the practicality. These things can be better packaged so that it can be something that we can deepen and emulate.
Eric: Again, we trace the two levels of our narratives. One is maybe we are experiencing a collective moral awakening of the Global South. Can we take that? Can we take it somewhere? We should all think about this. You go back to Malaysia, you go back to South Africa. We need to develop ideas and propagate them and organize people. Can we weave this together and make it into a collective moral awakening, that we're together. And then at a practical level, like you said, one of the books that influenced me a lot was written fifteen twenty years ago by a Cambridge economist called Kicking Away the Ladder.
Izzah: Ha-Joon chang。
Eric: They got there this way and now we're trying to kick the ladder. So the Chinese were very lucky, both through hard work and some luck that kept our grip on the ladder and we kind of got up there. I think it's too late for them to kick away the ladder. They're throwing the kitchen sink at us.
Izzah: Section 201.
Eric: But we're on the castle. But being there alone is not good enough. We gotta bring the rest of the Global South there, only that could we make it sustainable for us, because we have a different philosophy, we have a different moral code, we have different political creed. We had globalization for several decades, now we're going through a de-globalizing era, driven by the Global North, by the way, because they want to kick away the ladder. Now they feel globalization is hurting their interests, so they don't want it anymore, because before they were making money so they want, but I think it's a little too late. So what we want to do is go through this de-globalization phase and try to re-globalize. The re-globalized world is gonna be a different kind of globalized world. It's gonna be more inclusive, globalized world. So we've been talking about how can China work with the rest of the Global South, with ASEAN, with BRICS countries, maybe the Belt and Road thing, the infrastructure building and also manufacturing.
So the Chinese path towards technology is totally different from the West, the West build technologies and they collect rents, they use technologies to exploit the rest of the world. And even in the last short period of 10, 20 years with the advancement of Chinese technologies, we see a totally different thing.When Chinese invent technologies, we beat up each other and get the price down to nothing. It's maddening to an investor like me sometimes but that's just the nature of the beast. The Chinese have a different way of approaching this. Every time the Chinese invent something, very quickly it become lower costing for the rest of the world. EV, for instance. if the Americans are at the same position, EVs will be selling more expensive than the Mercedes, I'm telling you because that's how they do it. Aspirin, they could keep selling aspirin at 90% gross margin for 50 years. If the Chinese invent a new drug, it'll be down to nothing like 5 years ago.
Izzah: I like how you say things that people think about but not necessarily mouth.
Eric: So now we are potentially going to different type of globalization; if we could keep it going like this, like I said, we climb up the ladder, we have Chinese technologies, and then we bring world production and global market. How do we work together on the supply chain all of these things?
Busani: Let me give it a practical example; in the article I'm writing for Guancha, which is coming out tomorrow I think, I make a proposal that's what the Global South must agree on is what I call the Kimberley Process 2.0. Those of you who watched the movie, blood diamonds, will remember how the diamond trade created havoc in many countries, especially in Africa, that were producing diamonds.
There was a process called the Kimberley process named after the place where diamonds were discovered in South Africa. It became a dialogue process where eventually there are set of rules that are used globally, it must be applied by everybody who is in the trade or the sale of diamond; by introducing that Kimberley Process, we saw conflicts in countries like Liberia and so on reversing, because every diamond that is selling globally has to be accounted for.
Right now, the big conflict that is going to happen in many countries in Africa, I suppose could be in Asia as well as in Latin America, is around the critical minerals. These are critical minerals required for the green revolution, which includes the manufacturer of EVs. I am proposing that we need a Kimberley Process 2, specifically designed for critical minerals. Because by doing that, what the EU is doing, for example, in Congo, what the US and them are doing in many countries in Africa that are producing critical minerals, because they want to compete with China, and is brewing conflicts in those countries, that can be reversed.
And secondly, it means that through this global value chains that you are talking about, countries that have got critical minerals can then industrialize using those, which means even if the ladder is kicked, they can make some leaps. They don't have to wait and go through each and every step of catching up. Because those countries like in central Africa and so on can mine these critical minerals, do some kind of processing, before they end up here in China where they are making EVs and all sorts of others. That's where it will be the biggest contribution, for example, of China in the industrialization of the Global South, if there was a mechanism that says we would be buying these critical minerals, you do the following beneficiation of those minerals before they get here, and all of them are accounted for. So they are done peacefully, and secondly, there is a form of industrialization that took place there; that will shake the empire to its core, because it has never been tried before.
Eric: I actually think we are at a critical juncture. We have amazing opportunities because somehow if we can marry China's enormous industrial capacity with the resources and the market of the Global South, we put them together, we form a new globalized world outside of what I call a small garden. We're the world and they’re the small garden. I think it was Fareed Zakaria who talked about the west and the rest, the rise of the rest, I want to turn around and just say the world and the west; we’re the world and they are the west. So there's so much to do. Can ASEAN be a more active player?
Izzah: I think we have to also be aware that there are social developmental differences between the different nations of ASEAN and different levels of economic development for one thing, but that can be harnessed in terms of making sure what kind of model can apply best to which nation.
I like when Busani mentioned this Kimberley Process, Malaysia, we set up our downstream development of oil and gas, our own national petroleum company back in 1974. It was important because if we didn't, it would have been difficult. So imagine now rare earth, critical minerals, how did you develop the ability? It's not just selling the raw materials, but it is making sure that you are able to harness downstream. You have a talent pool and it takes time, it takes a lot of political will, it takes patience and it takes a mindset that doesn't want just to profit here tomorrow. This is where I think, the more we talk about it, then you can understand as you link, your role is also to figure out your respective nations, how will I get better in the next ten years.
Couple that with other mechanisms, one is the issuance and the usage of compulsory or voluntary licensing which Malaysia had introduced. When it comes to vaccines or treatment, that's extremely expensive; you know how these big pharmas come and then they impose ridiculous pricing and you see people die because the governments can't afford to treat people.
So we did it successfully with the cooperation of drugs for neglected diseases, DNDI, with our Ministry of Health, and voila, you have affordable Hepatitis C medication that saved more than tens of thousands of lives.
So again, making sure each of us know, whether it’s this rare minerals, critical minerals, or whether it's simple things as much needed medication, it can be done and it should be done and everyone should embrace this. Because what are they gonna do? When they can't sell to the Malaysian market, they knock on Vietnam’s door; but we've got to stand together. We have to really convince everybody in ASEAN.
Eric: Collective bargaining of the Global South. On so many fronts that we can do this, if we have political will. So Busani, what about South Africa? You guys are the leader.
Busani: It's important that in these conversations, we think of contradictions, each country has got its own contradictions of national development, contradictions in the regime and contradictions globally.
Recently, there's been a number of South Africans who have been saying, you should be dealing with poverty here and not going to the international courts of justice and worrying about what's happening in another country and so on.
And government is clear that national development and its pursuits must not negate other responsibilities such as pursuing the agenda of peace and justice as we have been doing as South Africa. And we're happy that many other countries have actually joined forces with South Africa. Because it’s very important what Madiba Mandela said, that we need to give a human face, a new face, a human face into the global order. Hence South Africa is pursuing that.
And we truly appreciate that with all the challenges we have experienced, including the lessons learned from state building over the past 30 years, built on the experiences, for example, we have a National Planning Commission. The National Planning Commission is built on the Planning Council here as well as the Commission on Malaysia. I'm doing work with the Ha-Joon chang he’s coming into the new cabinet in July, he will be part of the people who will be in that conversation.
We truly understand that one, we must deal with the national priorities of reversing poverty and inequality and going through structural reforms, we must sustain our obligation of pursuing justice and development as a collective in the Global South. And that is our attitude in how we relate with China, with Malaysia and many other countries.
And by the way, it's difficult many of you have seen on television that almost every second week in the US congress, there is someone writing a letter, proposing a bill or debating something that South Africa must be isolated. That is the type of stuff that we are going through as South Africa because there is a lobby that says you must isolate South Africa because of what has been happening in the Middle East. But it's important. It's amongst ourselves as partners. And I think that every revolution needs people who endow at those revolution. In this instance, what the revolution requires in the Global South endowment required is intellectual capital, its supports amongst each other, but also support to build long lasting institutions, and those countries in Asia and elsewhere who have much more advanced in the dynamic state capabilities need to be able, as part of the agenda of export building people to people conduct, to support efforts by other countries, especially the small ones, to build their dynamic capability.
So that Eric, when they come and negotiate a BRI contract with China, which will be critiqued in western media, right? A smallest country must be able to sign a contract, understand the terms of condition of and sign it in full confidence that this contract is in the best interest of our country. In some instances, these examples that gets used is because the country would have been small, it should have been desperate to sign a deal because they want the bridge, they want the rail and the road and so on. And all the early generation contract they had some problems in there.
But if we support all countries in the Global South build dynamic capabilities, we will know that when BRI is expanded. That the criticism that the contracts are skewed in favor of China and so on can be managed. We will know actually because even when the infrastructure is built, you need to be maintained. You must know that when the big SOE of China has left, that asset is going to be maintained accordingly. So there has to be that those considerations of sustainability, hence this project of building dynamic state capabilities had to be part and parcel of the people to people conduct.
Izzah: I just want to add on that's such an important factor because the first part is always the great announcement and similar to Hep C, but what's the second episode, or the second season? How do you become sustainable? Right? Because you're gonna be cornered in every market when you take this decision. So deepening of investments and that kind of subsequent support to make sure that it is sustainable, whether the country itself. And this is how it works, because its hand holding and it is challenging. But I think that's the bit that goes back to this huge whole issue interlinkages. Right? I Malaysia is also not exempted from being threatened here and there.
So the point is they're gonna start doing it, but how are we responding. Are we responding collectively?
Eric:So the point is they're gonna start doing it, but how are we responding. Are we responding collectively?
So I think that's a really important point. I think it's a new thing. It's a new phenomenon that China has now become a major economic player in so many countries. That’s a new phenomenon. Our lending, China's lending to the Global South is bigger than WTO and all the western institutions and rich countries combined.
And it's enormous and the company's going there. So I think we actually should probably develop a economic code of conduct for economic activities between China and these countries. And it's kind of a common understanding how we mutually benefit each other on a sustainable basis of it. It's a new phenomenon. So we have a lot of problems 10, 15 years ago where the Chinese companies were going to Myanmar. It was a lot of problems, but then they fixed it. Now they're in a much better shape. So we're learning. I think it goes both ways, that's another task that we should do. I think that China should sit down with Global South institutions, like BRICS, ASEAN, to figure out a framework to how Chinese economic activities should take place in these countries.
Izzah: And vice versa.
Eric: Right.
Busani: That's correct. It's important that we also are open about it. My own understanding of the evolution in the countries I have worked with in Africa is that the type of investment that we see from the Chinese companies in Africa, Now we are now interacting with first grade SOEs and first grade private companies. 15 years ago, we were interacting with 4th grade companies rural China and so on.
Eric: I call hit-and-run company.
Busani: Now the game has changed also because some of them, because we are now interacting with the first tier, They are under strict supervision from government here. So the amount of challenges that were there 15 years ago now are being mitigated by the fact that we are interacting with the biggest of SOEs, the biggest of private companies who are under tight supervision from government itself here. But I think we are opening a frontier for scholars of global relations, that maybe there should be an exploration of what we will call a code of conduct, that in itself will collapse some global some western capital actually.
Eric: And there is a moral aspect to it. If you look at what western economic activities, western companies have been doing in Africa, for instance, in the last 200 years, 300years, it's almost criminal. You go to Ghana where I used to go, I like to go inside the school there. It has rich deposits of gold, and the local people got none of it. Zero. It's all British companies’, Europe an companies’ gold. They sign away the stuff with the corrupt officials and then take the gold; they've been living there for thousand years, got zero. And China should not and will not repeat that. So we need to figure out code of conduct.
Izzah: It's like the confessions of an economy hit man, that book I read.
Eric: We got a big to do list.
Izzah: We do. But at least we know what we need to do. That's a good start.
Eric: The Global South countries need to get together and articulate a vision of the re-globalized world. What kind of world do we want? We talk about justice in the world, economic development, mutual development, bring prosperity to our peoples. So what are the rules of the road? All these things are waiting for us to address. So we need to articulate a vision. What kind of world do we want?
Izzah: This is also exciting, right? I mean in a sense that this moment has come and it's us to kind of craft and draw out. Even the mere mention of a code of conduct, I think it gives a lot of hope, it should give a lot of hope to younger people, the next generation, that there is this move towards a more altruistic engagement within the Global South.
Eric: Exactly. Right. This is the kind of stuff your organization should be leading.
Li Yuefen：Yeah, but we have been doing it very actively already.
Izzah: They're the ones who say I told you so.
Eric: Great. Good. So we're out of time. Let me summarize 30 seconds. I summarize into 4 things that we discussed today. It's amazing discussion. Okay. Number one, you raised it, philosophical underpinning. Can we develop a moral narrative, a common vision for the world we want, the Global South wants, a moral narrative, a justice in the world I heard, a just world order or something like that. So we need to think about that. Second, mutual economic development. How do we cultivate a new economic development architecture with all the changes, deglobalization, reglobalization, supply chain, China's changing economic profile and the production going, so a new economics architecture that help us all develop, help us all keep the ladder and climb up together. Third, what kind of societal policies that we should develop, with regards to poverty, for instance, social policies across diverse cultures and diverse political systems. Fourth, our own standards that are not imposed on us, but we develop our own standards and our own institutions, institutions like BRICS, new institution, ideas that you just raised, the pool of capital that could at least not replace IMF but be an alternative IMF, these kind of new institutional ideas.
Eric: We have work cut out for us. We should go back to our respective countries and work on and think about and work on these things. We want, in the Beijing Club for International Dialogue, we want it to be a platform, a place for us to come back again and again to discuss these things and over time maybe we develop initiatives. Maybe we develop forums when we develop standards, maybe we develop whatever organizations. Thank you so much.